h1. Irclog
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 03 10:28:36 2010 Mar 03 10:28:36 * Now talking on #notnexuiz Mar 03 10:28:41Hi Mar 03 10:28:44 hello Mar 03 10:28:52 <[-z-]> why hello Mar 03 10:28:55 * [-z-] gives channel operator status to Dokujisan Taoki Mar 03 10:29:46 * div0 (Fg8deKX0@rm.endoftheinternet.org) has joined #notnexuiz Mar 03 10:30:07 * [-z-] gives channel operator status to div0 Mar 03 10:30:11 Welcome to Noxious. Mar 03 10:31:07 <[-z-]> I've talked to div0 and Dokujisan in private about different aspects in moving forward with a fork away from Nexuiz and away from Alientrap Mar 03 10:32:07 <[-z-]> we've begin discussing project organization, server availabiltiy, repository, name, interested parties, possible repurcussions and where we go from here Mar 03 10:32:11 just not sure if it will be an actual fork Mar 03 10:32:20 or rather, whether AT will even continue with Nexuiz then Mar 03 10:32:38 to summarize a bit: Mar 03 10:32:56 - repository I can provide, on icculus.org. In fact, I already have a Nexuiz repo there. Mar 03 10:33:10 I'm always with this project no matter what new name it will have, team name, etc. What happened happened, i mainly care what is best for this project now Mar 03 10:33:13 - project organization: there should be not "one leader who speaks for everyone". Mar 03 10:33:27 to make things like what had happened to not happen again Mar 03 10:34:04 I suggest a scheme that ensures 3 "leaders", and big decisions have to be agreed upon by all three, and they also should be "somewhat responsible" for the rest of the community Mar 03 10:34:16 e.g. no persons who are so detached that they simply do not care for the community any more Mar 03 10:34:34 I told -z- that I think all good projects need some sort of leadership to be succesful. The 3-leader idea isn't bad. Mar 03 10:34:40 <[-z-]> and perhaps a board or committee under that Mar 03 10:34:45 in AT, LordHavoc maybe somewhat still can represent the community - Vermeulen certainly can't Mar 03 10:35:25 2 leaders aren't enough, as at times there would be only one leader available :P Mar 03 10:35:28 <[-z-]> also for project reorganization, I've begun talking about better package management and distribution Mar 03 10:35:33 I think the existence of a "dictator" should eb avoided Mar 03 10:35:44 hm... how? Mar 03 10:36:04 <[-z-]> how? the whole upload test package and alert servers thing I was talking about Mar 03 10:36:11 I can confess I am a tiny little bit upset at LordHavoc too, because he could have declined this whole thing and not ported the engine to xbox. But I still like him and am not upset on him or anything... just wish he would have thought more at first maybe Mar 03 10:36:21 erm ps3 Mar 03 10:36:48 [-z-]: oh Mar 03 10:36:53 you don't mean packaging of the game :P Mar 03 10:37:01 <[-z-]> oh no no Mar 03 10:37:03 because, regarding that I think the old Nexuiz way was right Mar 03 10:37:11 <[-z-]> yeah, there is a good workflow there Mar 03 10:37:13 other than that I am working on a new build script that works more efficiently wiht git Mar 03 10:37:16 <[-z-]> I wouldn't want to modify that Mar 03 10:37:22 but that doesn't change the result Mar 03 10:37:32 <[-z-]> you know best about that area Mar 03 10:37:42 still, we ARE doing oddball packaging Mar 03 10:37:48 <[-z-]> I want to start getting this project more organized though Mar 03 10:37:51 so MAYBE we should make it more "standard" anyway Mar 03 10:37:56 but well Mar 03 10:37:59 <[-z-]> and built the website into the workflow Mar 03 10:38:02 it is oddball that we put all platforms in one download Mar 03 10:38:06 but it has its advantages too Mar 03 10:38:22 <[-z-]> I want to build everything into wordpress/mybb and get the build script putting out cvar / command lists for the tool I'll integrate into the site. Mar 03 10:38:32 I wouldn't want to touch that for now, but do some attempts at making platform specific versions too Mar 03 10:38:42 I e.g. have recently made an engine feature that allows attaching a pk3 to a executable Mar 03 10:38:49 so we could make a single selfcontained exe file for the game Mar 03 10:38:51 (a 900MB one...) Mar 03 10:39:32 for OS X, such a thing can already be accomplished because applications are just folders anyway Mar 03 10:39:33 I hope there aren't plans to distribute Nexuiz like that in the future. Mar 03 10:39:39 and Linux users don't care about that structure anyway :P Mar 03 10:39:53 Taoki: I don 't want to exclude it, but probably it won't happen Mar 03 10:40:01 except maybe for DSN :P Mar 03 10:40:22 I think the advantages of the multiplatform zip overweigh that Mar 03 10:40:27 I don't support that personally. The data being in a pk3 file is very important for flexibility and the like imo Mar 03 10:40:31 <[-z-]> I think it would be helpful in some cases where users prefer simplicity Mar 03 10:40:33 it stays just as flexible Mar 03 10:40:34 <[-z-]> but never a forced thing Mar 03 10:40:37 if you cat the pk3 to an executable Mar 03 10:40:44 you can rename the result to zip and work with it normally Mar 03 10:40:50 it is no less flexible than the pk3 way Mar 03 10:41:07 zip self extractors work that way too :P Mar 03 10:41:16 Hmm, I see Mar 03 10:41:20 still Mar 03 10:41:26 it means different downloads for different platforms Mar 03 10:41:32 which somewhat hides that the game is multiplatform Mar 03 10:41:48 and that is the part that I don't like about it Mar 03 10:42:03 for damn small nexuiz this is no issue htough :P Mar 03 10:42:11 I still like the way it is packed now myself. Don't think we should change that. Mar 03 10:42:15 right Mar 03 10:42:17 I like it too Mar 03 10:42:26 this is, again, more an idea for specialized "distributions" like DSN Mar 03 10:43:15 [16:38:43] <@[-z-]> I want to build everything into wordpress/mybb and get the build script putting Mar 03 10:43:17 out cvar / command lists for the tool I'll integrate into the site. Mar 03 10:43:27 you want the buoild script accessible from a web interface... not sure if that is good Mar 03 10:43:49 another thing however that I would like, is more frequent public releases Mar 03 10:43:56 with git, we can easily separate into different branches Mar 03 10:44:03 and merge features into the main branch when they are done Mar 03 10:44:19 Yeah, same div0. New versions seem to be released once or twice an year Mar 03 10:44:27 so we should be able to make "weekly" test releases, and make actual minor releases every 3 months Mar 03 10:44:31 Maybe once every 3-4 months at most wouldn't be bad Mar 03 10:44:55 just like I did my work on Nexuiz/DP lately Mar 03 10:45:08 I e.g. finished the warpzones code before putting it into the main branch Mar 03 10:45:53 the problem is just, I cannot enforce such a policy on darkplaces Mar 03 10:46:04 div0: I have wanted a fork of nexuiz for a long while. The reasons were mainly because of missing elements of project management. We (I discussed this with a handful of others) couldn't do a fork before because we didn't have someone like you, a primary developer who knows the code very well. But if YOU are involved in a Nexuiz fork, that changes things. I would be onboard as long as we have an outline of management....and some i Mar 03 10:46:04 ntention of doing "official" community development, "official" marketing efforts, "official" testing procedures with a select group of volunteer testers, etc. Mar 03 10:46:07 for that I am maintaining a "stable branch", but unstabilities still happen once in a while in DP Mar 03 10:46:14 as I often simply cannot properlya judge if something is stable Mar 03 10:46:35 select group of testers... not sure :P Mar 03 10:46:44 I don't think testing should be limited Mar 03 10:46:52 everyone should be allowed, and even encouraged, to Mar 03 10:47:11 but, some select group for "heavier" testing is still a very good idea Mar 03 10:47:20 i.e. people who should feel responsible for actually testing it :P Mar 03 10:47:23 Not sure to whom I mentioned this, but for a while ago I've started making an own game from Nexuiz as well. Obviously, one that will be named differently and remain GPL too :P Probably a little game which is just like, a sort of story i wanted to make for myself Mar 03 10:47:30 well of course features can be experienced by all, but a select group would do some proper feedback and have better communication with the dev team Mar 03 10:47:39 right Mar 03 10:47:44 I just say... we shouldn't restrict Mar 03 10:47:49 <[-z-]> sorry went to make tea, let me catch up Mar 03 10:47:51 a testing team should not be exclusive Mar 03 10:47:58 but it should eb responsible for the testing Mar 03 10:48:07 anyone else still is free to test too :P Mar 03 10:48:16 anyone could give feedback....my point is that this type of subject should be discussed. The whole game balance issues that we went through (before and after LH rejoined the project) could have been handled better Mar 03 10:48:19 Yeah, SVn should always be public imo Mar 03 10:48:22 <[-z-]> div0: the cvar and command lists would be text files reformated as json and accessible through a web application Mar 03 10:48:35 Taoki: not just svn Mar 03 10:48:37 also binary builds Mar 03 10:48:42 sure Mar 03 10:48:44 <[-z-]> wordpress is an open format many developers know and love and it will be easy for us to scale Mar 03 10:48:50 my goal is weekly binary builds from the "stable" branch Mar 03 10:49:04 feature freeze would simply mean no feature branches get merged into main, only bugfixes would Mar 03 10:49:10 other devs can then still work on features :P Mar 03 10:49:27 they just won't appear in the release the freeze is for Mar 03 10:49:42 <[-z-]> This will help give us a stronger community because we can build user auth into other parts of the site, like a map repository. Mar 03 10:49:58 as for cvar list... Mar 03 10:50:05 don't know how to properly generate json from shell script Mar 03 10:50:12 <[-z-]> you don't have to Mar 03 10:50:12 but well, I do know how to make a full cvar list text file :P Mar 03 10:50:16 <[-z-]> yes Mar 03 10:50:18 <[-z-]> that's all I need Mar 03 10:50:20 <[-z-]> that's how it works Mar 03 10:50:22 <[-z-]> I have it in git Mar 03 10:50:24 I'm strongly in favor of a central user system Mar 03 10:50:27 once did that by actually running the engine, and doing cvarlist :P Mar 03 10:50:41 <[-z-]> Dokujisan: I don't think it's a completely central user system Mar 03 10:50:50 <[-z-]> and I'm open to creating a distributed network Mar 03 10:51:06 I don't think repository access and web user auth can be combined Mar 03 10:51:12 <[-z-]> div0: this is how it works http://github.com/z/ncacs Mar 03 10:51:17 but all the rest should be able to Mar 03 10:51:40 <[-z-]> so just a cronjob to generate the list and upload it to a web server Mar 03 10:51:42 Heh, I realize now i never thouht about any such changes, now that it is talked about. Nexuiz, for a free and opensource project, always seemed perfect to me. Never thought anything could or should be improved in how it's managed etc. Mar 03 10:51:46 only problem: this lacks cvars that are specific to some builds Mar 03 10:51:58 like renderer stuff Mar 03 10:52:01 Except that patches could be checked more often, been struggling with that for the last months Mar 03 10:52:04 <[-z-]> div0: well, we can further separate it Mar 03 10:52:05 div0: I'm working on another gaming project with Getty and we're planning something called a PlayerID which is to be a central user system that even other games other than ours could use Mar 03 10:52:14 Taoki: thing is Mar 03 10:52:24 working with such patches is quite tedious Mar 03 10:52:36 I say, when using git, more people should get commit access to branches Mar 03 10:52:43 and merging gets easier then too Mar 03 10:53:11 Yeah, i'm still not so familiar with git. It is more difficult to understand than SVN, ad least over Windows with Tortoise Mar 03 10:53:16 Dokujisan: you know I am against an enforced user system for the game Mar 03 10:53:20 I want to play anonymously Mar 03 10:53:26 even though that means proper banning cannot happen Mar 03 10:53:34 an optioanl registration for stats, why not Mar 03 10:53:37 div0: even if you register a name, isn't that still anonymous? Mar 03 10:53:50 not really, one can easily find out :P Mar 03 10:53:55 <[-z-]> well, I wasn't even thinking about stats but we can do that too... I was thinking more for content submissions Mar 03 10:54:04 I basically don't want to be trackable in game Mar 03 10:54:09 why not? Mar 03 10:54:10 I sometimes play with other nicks Mar 03 10:54:23 because e.g. employers are not supposed to know that I sometimes play 3 hours on a day Mar 03 10:54:32 <[-z-]> :-P Mar 03 10:54:32 they are prone to expect you to be there for the company all day Mar 03 10:54:41 the times of 8hr/day are over Mar 03 10:55:13 and no, I do not mean playing from work. Mar 03 10:55:16 not doing THAT :P Mar 03 10:55:17 what if each user account is allowed 3 hidden aliases tied to the account? Mar 03 10:55:21 no Mar 03 10:55:25 or some other variation Mar 03 10:55:28 why do you want to enforce accounts? Mar 03 10:55:40 even though _I_ know my email address won't eb abused Mar 03 10:55:44 how would anyone else be sure? Mar 03 10:55:58 (I would know because I'd have control over that system :P) Mar 03 10:56:10 the moderation features alone are worth the central user system Mar 03 10:56:14 but as far as trusting people Mar 03 10:56:28 banning is not worth tracking Mar 03 10:56:31 we could win people's faith because of being an open source project with open values Mar 03 10:56:34 how would hidden aliases even work? Mar 03 10:56:41 i mean, if you use it for banning Mar 03 10:56:45 div0: that can be discussed. I just thought of that off the top of my head Mar 03 10:57:06 other way round, for positive display of trust - sure Mar 03 10:57:13 people SHOULD be able to register others as friends Mar 03 10:57:25 and I can always opt to play as an "unknown" :P Mar 03 10:57:36 think of IRC nickname registration Mar 03 10:57:50 that is optional, although you sort of have to do it if you want to have some sort of status (e.g. op in a channel) Mar 03 10:58:07 I'd have no problem if this user auth system is tied to e.g. vote masterä Mar 03 10:58:09 <[-z-]> Hey, can we rewind for a second and brain storm names for this group and project so we can go forward with setting up resources to outline the project and discuss these things with a wiki / forum? Mar 03 10:58:13 or even required for being allowed to start a vote Mar 03 10:58:25 well your main concern is with tracking, like stats of tracking the times that you are online playing.... the aliases would be for avoiding that. You could use your alias names when you don't want to be tracked publicly. Mar 03 10:58:38 how would that even help? Mar 03 10:58:46 the server would probably know that I am the same person Mar 03 10:58:49 and just display other info Mar 03 10:59:12 I do not WANT the server to know, as I don't have good reasons to trust it Mar 03 10:59:42 yes the central server would be the only thing knowing the link between the user account and the alias Mar 03 10:59:47 thing is basically... in the open source community, many people are also friends of privacy :P Mar 03 10:59:51 I'm not sure why you wouldn't trust that Mar 03 11:00:03 well this is still supporting privacy, I think Mar 03 11:00:04 _I_ would because I would have access to that server, and know how it works Mar 03 11:00:08 how could anyone else be able to trust it? Mar 03 11:00:12 <[-z-]> wouldn't the solution here be for servers to opt into this centralized service? Mar 03 11:00:12 any "mere player"? Mar 03 11:00:38 don't mere players trust websites all the time anyway? Mar 03 11:00:43 not all Mar 03 11:00:45 with registering Mar 03 11:00:50 e.g. what about all the noscript users? :P Mar 03 11:00:58 or, you do know bugmenot.com? :P Mar 03 11:01:08 well I mean with your example of trusting someone with your email address Mar 03 11:01:15 that's one scenario Mar 03 11:01:16 there IS a large group who is on the side of privacy Mar 03 11:01:23 I am part of that Mar 03 11:01:34 I do not want others to be able to track me, when I don't positively allow them to Mar 03 11:01:41 in a forum it can't be avoided, so it's fine by me Mar 03 11:01:52 but in a game, it should be avoided Mar 03 11:02:02 still, you can give good incentives for registering in the game Mar 03 11:02:06 #just shouldn't enforce it Mar 03 11:02:15 even nick name coloring could depend on it :P Mar 03 11:02:17 do you want to be allowed to spam servers like nadz does? Mar 03 11:02:26 it can't be helped Mar 03 11:02:26 <[-z-]> just make it an opt in feature Mar 03 11:02:29 I want to ensure my privacy Mar 03 11:02:30 <[-z-]> by the server admin Mar 03 11:02:31 I'm wondering what level of freedom you are after Mar 03 11:02:45 basically: Mar 03 11:02:46 <[-z-]> 90% of the internet uses google, so they clearly don't give a shit about privacy :-P Mar 03 11:02:49 this is just a game here. The goal should always be about allowing players to....play the game Mar 03 11:02:57 and that is really what moderation is about...or should be about Mar 03 11:03:01 <[-z-]> plus, we can mask their ips from the server if they feel so inclined Mar 03 11:03:10 IPs are already masked :P Mar 03 11:03:12 that isn't the problem Mar 03 11:03:18 <[-z-]> yes but I mean with cool names Mar 03 11:03:23 well Mar 03 11:03:25 <[-z-]> or annoying depending on how you look at them :-P Mar 03 11:03:29 what about this: Mar 03 11:03:35 <[-z-]> z@my-clan.rockz.net Mar 03 11:03:38 1. in serious match (like ladder, pickup), you MUST be registered Mar 03 11:03:47 <[-z-]> yes Mar 03 11:03:53 2. in FFA match, you don't have to be, but if not, you show up as unregistered in the scoreboard Mar 03 11:03:56 Not so much into privacy here, when it comes to Nexuiz. But for those who want it, it is good. Afaik you can just change nickname before entering a server. Mar 03 11:04:01 the method for which aliases are used could be public knowledge. Aliases woudln't be trakced. They would only be used to apply moderation actions to an account, when necessary. Mar 03 11:04:05 maybe can even only use the marine model and non-colored nicks Mar 03 11:04:15 This reminds me. I hope Nexuiz will have a menu Friends List at some point Mar 03 11:04:31 Taoki: CURRENTLY I can just change my nick :P Mar 03 11:04:45 basically... I am fine if I lose features when playing unregisteredly Mar 03 11:04:55 like nick colors, player model choice Mar 03 11:05:07 but I want to stay able to Mar 03 11:05:20 otherwise, I'll have no choice but to create multiple dummy accounts with various email addresses Mar 03 11:05:35 div0: I'm mainly asking you to think about the possibilties here that can protect the necessary level of privacy. The main issues with privacy have to do with tracking. The other thing that is useful for a central registration system is to reserve names Mar 03 11:05:39 also, I am fine if some servers enforce the registration Mar 03 11:05:49 so nobody could use the alias name "divverent" Mar 03 11:05:52 right Mar 03 11:05:54 reserving names is good Mar 03 11:05:58 but well, on IRC it works too Mar 03 11:06:12 if not registered, what if I then always show up as divverent Mar 03 11:06:20 and to be divVerent, I need to registere Mar 03 11:06:25 hmm Mar 03 11:06:27 Right... i even forgot there is a traking system. If there is one... I'm shamed to say i don't know yet (like a system that stores how good you are on servers, atc) Mar 03 11:06:37 I woudln't want people to play as Dokujisan Mar 03 11:06:44 well Mar 03 11:06:47 you can kick them then :P Mar 03 11:06:55 rcon is its name iirc Mar 03 11:07:01 if you see a Dokujisan and a Dokujisan on a server Mar 03 11:07:05 you know which one is the right one :P Mar 03 11:07:20 well *I* do...but a mere player..... Mar 03 11:07:33 he'll see that you have the cooler color codes Mar 03 11:07:38 and the other Dokujisan is just plain white :P Mar 03 11:08:00 <[-z-]> maybe he was feeling vanilla and the other one was just being)) Mar 03 11:08:06 lol Mar 03 11:08:10 the unregistered tag could be )) Mar 03 11:08:13 <[-z-]> haha Mar 03 11:08:27 <[-z-]> halo on xbox live used to have a iconic background Mar 03 11:08:32 <[-z-]> in the names list Mar 03 11:08:37 <[-z-]> well on the scoreboard Mar 03 11:08:56 I think when it comes to privacy issues, instead of saying in a blanket fashion "I want my privacy!" is not helpful, but breaking it down into specific concerns or scenarios is something that can be worked with. Mar 03 11:08:57 <[-z-]> for registered (at bungie.net) users Mar 03 11:09:10 Dokujisan: but well, if you can figure out a way that allows enforced registration without the server (not the auth server either) knowing who you are Mar 03 11:09:14 then I am fine wiht it Mar 03 11:09:23 possibly this can be done using digital signatures Mar 03 11:09:31 can you help me come up with some solution like that? I would be more than happy to travel down that road. Mar 03 11:09:44 I don't know one, but find it possible that one exists Mar 03 11:09:52 getty talked about using digital signatures for the PlayerID concept Mar 03 11:09:59 like, with RSA such stuff may be possible Mar 03 11:10:18 e.g., RSA scheme is "malleable", so you can "edit" an encrypted message without being able tod ecrypt it Mar 03 11:10:33 this might be useful to implement the "aliases" Mar 03 11:10:56 <[-z-]> Dokujisan: think about integrating the playerID system with wordpress as well. Mar 03 11:10:57 they might then appear as valid signatures, but the server doesn't know for whom Mar 03 11:11:25 but of course... then the player also cannot be properly banned Mar 03 11:12:16 well we all know that any player can just re-register Mar 03 11:12:26 but banning is more about creating resistance Mar 03 11:12:39 making it a bit harder for them to act inappropriately Mar 03 11:14:22 I still wonder if there is a way to combine both Mar 03 11:14:26 ip-based banning is more useful. A combination of user account + IP is better. Mar 03 11:14:34 what if the "player ID" is a different one when talking to a different server Mar 03 11:14:46 e.g. if the cleint doesn't send the player ID, but a hash of the player ID and the server IP Mar 03 11:14:51 you then cannot be tracked across servers Mar 03 11:14:57 but one server can recognize you Mar 03 11:15:52 or even, if every player immediately gets 9 IDs on registration he can freely choose from, and accumulate stats on Mar 03 11:16:04 if one is banned, he will of course use the next one Mar 03 11:16:08 but he only has 9 chances :P Mar 03 11:16:19 still... he then just reregisters Mar 03 11:16:47 I am fine if some servers enforce registration of course Mar 03 11:16:55 but I can tell you straight away, I won't play on such servers Mar 03 11:17:00 yes, I really like the idea of enticing people to act appropriately by offering features that benefit longstanding accounts. Mar 03 11:17:21 div0: even if the main privacy issues are dealt with? Mar 03 11:17:30 Dokujisan: I do0ubt they CAN be dealt with Mar 03 11:17:35 e.g. if a centralized auth server is used Mar 03 11:17:40 what if it gets hacked? Mar 03 11:17:54 what if the server admin decides it's a good idea to release all sorts of log data from it? Mar 03 11:18:02 if the aliases aren't tracked, then that shouldn't affect the privacy issue that you explained earlier (tracking) Mar 03 11:18:07 the one piece of ifnormation that I never want to publish, is when and how long I played Mar 03 11:18:09 so even if accounts are hacked Mar 03 11:18:17 how do I _know_ the aliases are not tracked? Mar 03 11:18:33